Cephiro

Prejudice and the Nature of the Beast Summon

Mokonalord

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Prejudice and the Nature of the Beast Summon
« on: February 10, 2015, 12:39:44 AM »
I am of the opinion that Ascot's life before the Magic Knights or even Zagato sucked. The best part of his life during that time period was by far, his friends, and as he said, people treated him and them like dirt.

This thread is for theories on what kind of Summoner/Palu prejudice there might have been in Cephiro, and ideas about the nature of summoning in general. Naturally, I have some of my own:

  • Summoners in Cephiro are viewed comparably to how black men are in the United States. As in, stereotyped as dangerous hoodlums, thought to be not as smart (maybe a lot of "Summoning isn't even real magic, the beast is doing all the work."), and when caught doing something wrong, more harshly punished for it.
  • Certain varieties of summoning are more acceptable than others. In my particular manga version (1999 Tokyopop, back when they were still flipping them), you see Clef using a 'Cleft Pet Summon' to call his griffin creature, while Ascot uses 'Makishima Monster Summon' for his friends. There's also Lantis' Spirit Animal Summon. My thoughts on the difference:
    • Spirit Animal Summons are creatures willed into being. As a man-made creation, they fully obey the will of their creator, but are limited by that same will. Since they're completely controlled, nobody has any problem with them.
    • Pet Summons are creatures that have been specifically bred and domesticated for use by humans. These are the types that 'acceptable' Summoners collect, though since they're usually pretty expensive, only the well-to-do can actually afford to become summoners.
    • Monster Summons are completely wild. Of all the summons, they are the strongest and most capable varieties (and the least expensive), but the hardest to control. Most people cannot tell the difference between the fear-produced monsters and these, so misconceptions about their nature abound. All of Ascot's friends are probably Monster Summons.
  • Work for Summoners with only Monster Summons is very scarce.

Agree, disagree, have your own theories? Let's hear it!
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 11:17:37 PM by Mokonalord »
If your headcanon for Ascot's backstory doesn't make me want to cry, I probably won't believe it.

Milieva

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Re: Prejudice and the Nature of the Beast Summon
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2015, 10:37:50 PM »
Pretty sure that it's Ascots friends who are not treated well by the villagers, not Ascot himself. Probably because they look like monsters.  Possibly they even are monsters, tamed by him.  Possibly something happened to him, which had him adopted by them, rather like Mowgli and his wolves. But they are wild, widely considered dangerous, creatures, so people are frightened of them.  And you know how people react to things they don't understand.

He's so sure that he is needed at the castle, because he is a palu. It is a title like guru, daru, and soru.  It is a title, not a slur, so I do not think there is any real prejudice against Ascot himself or his abilities.

Also, I'm sat here with Down going over the Kanji of the difference summons (we've been looking at both Tokyo Pop translations and the original Japanese this evening), and they are not as different as they might seems, but I'll let her go into detail there. My Japanese is rubbish.
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Down

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Re: Prejudice and the Nature of the Beast Summon
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2015, 11:14:10 PM »
I HAVE THEORIES (WHO IS SHOCKED??? *SILENCEEEEEEEEEEEEE*) and I've gone back to the Japanese volumes to check it and it's actually FASCINATING to look at the difference between the way various people summon and the way magic works in the original (which - the spells really don't translate well??? because in the original there are two elements to any spell by a Cephiran: the large kanji, which have a direct meaning in Japanese that would be recognised by the original readers, and then a pronunciation - or 'word' - which is in katakana, and in the Cephiran language, and what they SAY. Because the word comes from the heart, so the spell is in the original language of the caster, but it has a recognisable meaning too! The Knights cast spells in Japanese, plain and simple~)

But I don't think there's a prejudice against summoning as such because we see three other respected mages summoning creatures as well as seeing Ascot do it, and I don't think there's a serious material difference in what they're doing, just in the look of the things they've summoned.

ANYWAY SO the kanji for Clef's spell (which is the exact same one both his students shown summoning use, in kanji and in cephiran word, which makes sense because SOMEONE was teaching people how to do this XD) is only ONE SYMBOL OFF from the version Ascot uses, though the Cephiran word-pronunciation is different (Clef has 'kurefuto' and Ascot has 'makishima')

The first symbol for Clef is 'spirit', or 'essence' - the next three are 'beast/animal' 'invite' 'summon' - so 'spirit beast/animal summon'. The first symbol Ascot uses is the symbol for MAGIC. The same one used in the magic knight's title, the same one used for mage, and in Clef's 'madoushi' title! So it's just 'magic beast summon' rather than 'spirit beast summon' and feels like it could easily be the self-taught, more intuitive and less refined version of the same spell?

I mean - okay, Clef uses 'mamono' (literally 'magic thing') as his description of the monsters which are attacking people (not Ascot's), which does mean monster in Japanese literature, but that 'thing' is the important bit there, especially in this context, because here they're created things, not animals? The 'animal' in the other phrase is important! And magic is too integral to Cephiro for their to be a general bias against magic. Plus, a) (which Mils may have pointed out I know she's responded while I'm writing this but I haven't read it XD) Ascot was summoned to the castle by a messenger and didn't think it very weird, but assumed they'd need him to summon something? Plus all his comments about his life before are routed in the fact people hated his friends, not that they hated him - that his friends were attacked and driven out of town wherever they went. Which is, pretty certain, because they LOOK, for whatever reason, like the monsters which are created by people's nightmares - but these are real creatures, not monsters, with more will and awareness and a moral compass and all that.

PLUS when Umi asks 'was that summoning magic?' when he uses his other magic, and uses the same phrase as the second half of the spell they both use? ('shokan' when it's being a word in Japanese)

So - I think it's specifically the types of creature which have caused the prejudice and the drumming out of places. BUT COUPLED WITH something else, which is how frightening it would be to have a boy that young and immature with that kind of power - because I think Ascot is ridiculously powerful. That's why Zagato calls on him (and why he isn't completely bewildered by the summons), and the strength of his friends - the amount of them he can call up at once - are evidence of this? And that's probably frightening! Because he's a child, and they don't trust him, or his ~friends~ and I think it all comes down to WHY those were the creatures Ascot summons? And I think that is down to how he first summoned them.

ALSO THOUGH it brings up the question of do his friends actually exist in Cephiro aside from when they're summoned? Are they spirits he's bringing through from another dimension? If they're spirits, is their form their own, or is he somehow dictating it through the summoning??? WHAT DOES EVERYONE THINK??? XD

Mokonalord

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Re: Prejudice and the Nature of the Beast Summon
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2015, 02:10:11 AM »
Thank you both for responding to my brain dump!

Okay, scratch #1 entirely.

So people don't have a problem with Summoners. Just Ascot's particular beasts. People are okay with most summoned creatures, but not his. So, what is the difference between Ascot's friends and other summons? Is it purely aesthetic? That they just look big and scary? I'd have a hard time buying that. I mean, it can't be that uncommon for summoners to have intimidating looking creatures in their arsenal. Do you suppose people ever gave Alcyone trouble for having her two-headed wolf creature out?
That's where that whole 'different varieties of summons' idea came from, and that the reason they have a problem with Ascot's is because they're not one of the domesticated varieties.

Of course, that's assuming the summons are gathered externally as opposed to created internally. But if the summons were created internally, well, that would mean the villagers kinda are hating on Ascot when they hate on his beasts. And to imply that something created by your own willpower might be a danger to the village, well, that's just rude.

That was what I wrote before seeing Down's reply. Actual translations? YAY! Thank you so much! You have given me great thoughts to mull over (as if I wasn't spending enough time obsessing over this series as is).

As for how frightening it would be for someone that young and immature with that sort of power, well, I'll give you the immature part, but given this is Cephiro, we can't really say for sure how young he really is (personally, I'm still going with 'peter pan syndrome'). I mean, unless magic people controlling their appearances was something your average cephiro joe had no clue about, I wouldn't think it would be that strange to see an extremely powerful person with the appearance of a kid. Emeraude and Clef, anyone? But hey, just dealing with overpowered people would be scary enough whatever their age, so whatever. I see your point.

Quote
ALSO THOUGH it brings up the question of do his friends actually exist in Cephiro aside from when they're summoned? Are they spirits he's bringing through from another dimension? If they're spirits, is their form their own, or is he somehow dictating it through the summoning??? WHAT DOES EVERYONE THINK???
Now those are some good thought-provoking questions! And will probably take a good deal of consideration. Oh, boy, let's see what I can come up with.

I'll try starting with what I know. (Brainstorming begin!) His friends can die. It's not like he's summoning from some sort of beast-type template, he's summoning live individual creatures that can be hurt and destroyed.
Hmm... Now I need to figure out whether to stick to solely the manga or take from both the manga and anime. Well, considering I really liked most of the stuff as far as Ascot's beasts were concerned, I think I'll take from both. Gives me a little more to work with.
Pajero (Desert sting ray). Could only move around in sand. If the monster hadn't been there before Ascot summoned them, the villagers wouldn't have had trouble getting their shipments. Unless... Just how long has it been since the village was cut off? I mean, from the way the lady was talking, it sounded like just a mild inconvenience...

Yeah, I'm gonna have to sleep on this.
If your headcanon for Ascot's backstory doesn't make me want to cry, I probably won't believe it.

Mokonalord

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Re: Prejudice and the Nature of the Beast Summon
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2015, 01:39:04 AM »
I got it! Whenever they're not out, the beasts are shrunk down to Polly Pocket size (the old kind) and live in Ascot's hat!

No, wait, that's just ridiculous. You know, this would be so much easier if Ascot wasn't the only Summoner we'd seen in the entire series. Sure, we've seen other characters summon creatures, but they don't call themselves Summoners.
Anyway, I'm gonna consider the questions this way: If the answer is yes, what would that look like and is that plausible?

First one: Do his friends actually exist in Cephiro aside from when they're summoned?

If we assume this is true, then summoning is essentially luring creatures you've befriended through a teleporter. You would have to somehow know where all your beasts are at any given time so the summoning circle could be sent to the right spot (getting them all to live in the same place wouldn't really work considering type differences) and be able to get their attention if they're sleeping or otherwise occupied. Have to keep track of which ones were still alive, too.

So, I'd say no. Teleportation for creatures that big from anywhere in Cephiro seems like it'd take an awful lot of magic to me. Plus, in the second season, when everybody was staying in that castle, that would mean that the beasts would all have to be in there somewhere. Every single beast of every single Summoner. Including ones like Pajero that could only live in specific climates, meaning a great deal of willpower going into building pretty much the largest zoo in the history of imagination. That's not even getting into how they're gonna feed all those beasts, since they couldn't forage or hunt in the wild anymore. Unless they gave every summoner a limit on how many beasts or what types they could keep, which DEAR MOKONA I DID NOT NEED TO IMAGINE ASCOT FACED WITH CHOOSING WHICH FRIENDS SHOULD LIVE OR DIE WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT BRAIN?! (Either he'd decide it wasn't worth it and take his chances outside the castle, or enough of his friends would make the choice for him- NO CUT THAT OUT!)

(Brain shorted from too many feels. Will add more here later.)

It's later.

Anyway, moving on, second question: Are they spirits he's bringing through from another dimension?
This, on the other hand, is an idea that gives us almost limitless possibilities. Too many, in fact, to really say what it would look like.
My opinion? Very plausible, especially if you take episode 9 "The Magic Knight's Greatest Crisis" as canon. In that episode, we see Alcyone trap Hikaru and Fuu in a blizzard contained within a giant snail (R.I.P. Deucy), and Umi accidentally sidestepping that by being so indecisive that her mind created a pocket dimension to deal with it. Trippy stuff, that Magic Knight Rayearth.

Okay, that gave me more theories (hopefully better ones).

  • All summons used to be creatures of Cephiro. They become summons by making some sort of pact with the Summoner.
  • The Summoner has a pocket dimension where summons remain in some sort of stasis until they're called.
    • While in there, they don't feel the effects of time, but they do feel the passage of time. They also feel, to an extent, what's happening to their Summoner (maybe how much they feel depends on how much of a bond they share?).
    • Theoretically, they can exist in the pocket dimension forever. However, it does get boring, even with other summons in there for company.
    • Whenever summoned, the creature has the choice not to return to the Summoner's pocket dimension. Therefore, it's very important to keep up relationships with all the summons.
  • Ascot's pocket dimension is in his hat. (Okay, that one's still a joke)
« Last Edit: February 14, 2015, 02:26:05 PM by Mokonalord »
If your headcanon for Ascot's backstory doesn't make me want to cry, I probably won't believe it.

Down

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Re: Prejudice and the Nature of the Beast Summon
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2015, 06:04:11 PM »
MUCH MUCH LATER (I have like three theories on the Science Of Summoning that I wander through from time to time because I can never make up my mind, I just try to keep them straight in each 'verse I write XD)

IF summoning is calling from a distant place - working on the logic that you might not need to know where they are because you are connected by ~knowing them through your magic~ or some such, AND the summoning by all the characters being the same

Then does that mean that Clef's spell to drag Umi, Ascot, Ascot's friend, Ferio, Fuu, and The Bird Ferio Pursuaded To Go On A Rescue Mission (did he borrow a summoned creature? My mind is failing) back to the castle was, in fact, summoning them??

BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE HILARIOUS (if his summoning cancelled out the other summoned creatures having been summoned then that would explain their vanishing, because I refuse to believe he abandoned them out there - mind you, they probably wouldn't fit in the hall - not through the doors to get out at least - so he'd have to dump them somewhere else anyway)

but that spell does imply that you can contact people/creatures you know across vast distances without knowing their exact location?

ALSO would establish that there's a physical distance outside of which summoning takes a LOT of power...

Plus there is always the other example - the Mashin exist in another dimension, and the Knights summon them. The way is different - I think because the Mashin grant a lot of their own power to the process rather than the knights fuelling it - but it does establish the principle of 'creatures living in another dimension which can be reached and brought into this one'. In the case of need, with the Knights, because the only spell you need is the name and then the Mashin will do the rest themselves - when the summoner is doing it, a spell to shape and direct the power because they're the one fuelling it?

BUT ANYWAY the Three-and-a-half Theories Of Summoning I think I've written (sometimes implicitly):

a) summon a spirit from another (non-physical) dimension and form it a body with your own power - which (this is the half and the bit I tend not to go into) could extend to 'summon a spirit which was once a creature, and has passed on, returning to Cephiro - but which still exists as a conciousness within the heart of Cephiro - forming it a body from your magic and it's idea of its identity. Er. So, basically giving ghosts a form to interact with the physical world, and as you control their access to the physical world you have control over them and BASICALLY THIS SOUNDS LIKE A REALLY BAD IDEA WHEN I WRITE IT OUT IN FULL BUT part of me believes Fyula existed as a flesh-and-blood creature once who Clef was friends with and now is a summonable spirit um SORRY FYULA???)

b) summon a creature which actually exists in another dimension which brings its body with it (though you might be fuelling the manifestation in this realm of that form?)

c) summon a creature which exists within Cephiro with whom you have forged a connection

(Griffins is spirits who you give a form, Protecting You is spirits who have a form that you fuel.)

Mokonalord

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Re: Prejudice and the Nature of the Beast Summon
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2015, 11:30:00 PM »
Quote
Then does that mean that Clef's spell to drag Umi, Ascot, Ascot's friend, Ferio, Fuu, and The Bird Ferio Pursuaded To Go On A Rescue Mission (did he borrow a summoned creature? My mind is failing) back to the castle was, in fact, summoning them??

BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE HILARIOUS (if his summoning cancelled out the other summoned creatures having been summoned then that would explain their vanishing, because I refuse to believe he abandoned them out there - mind you, they probably wouldn't fit in the hall - not through the doors to get out at least - so he'd have to dump them somewhere else anyway)
Just watched that scene again. Ascot's creature had disappeared after blocking the blast headed for Umi, so that was one less creature to worry about. It looks like they were recalled and didn't die from it, thankfully. Ascot's lost enough of his friends as is.
As the diehard Ascot/Umi shipper that I am, I must confess to being irrationally annoyed with Clef over that scene. It's like, "Hey, Ascot saved her first! Don't steal the spotlight! Rude! They would've been fine without your help if Debonair hadn't showed up and DEBONAIR DOESN'T EXIST IN MY CANON!" *pouts and grumbles childishly*

No idea where Ferio got the bird or where it went. Rent-A-Summon? Maybe trying to teleport with it violates the contract and in such cases it's magically returned to the center. Probably have to fill out a lot of paperwork and pay a fee when he gets back. Thanks again, Clef. *braces for if Down or Milieva feel like retaliating*

I know, I got issues and I take them out on fictional characters. Totally healthy. Anyway-

My default Summoning explanation is more like Pokemon than anything else, really. The creatures exist in the wild, Summoners go out and 'catch' them. Only the catching is more of a befriending process, and even if one convinces a creature to join the party, they still have will of their own and can refuse to follow their Summoner's orders if they're so inclined. For instance, when Vigor hesitated to attack Hikaru and when Capella had to be cajoled into agreeing to fight then went ballistic against Ascot's orders later.

Speaking of Capella, I have headcanons there. My impression is they were a fairly new summon. An extremely powerful summon, but one that Ascot hadn't quite developed a great rapport with yet. But, after losing four friends, he wasn't taking chances with anything less than practically unstoppable, so Capella it was. Only, since he knew the creature couldn't be trusted to follow orders, he decided to take direct control.
Yeah, didn't quite think that one through far enough, lil brother. I mean, sure, if your only goal is to destroy the Magic Knights at any cost, it was a great plan, and would've worked if it weren't for that meddling Selece. You just forgot to consider that a summon who only barely agreed to fight for you in the first place wouldn't take too kindly to mind control. Actually, most creatures wouldn't. It's just a shit move, especially against someone you call your friend. Seriously, I adore you to pieces, but you are so many shades of WTF in the first season. You're also short-sighted. Bless your heart.

Quote
a) summon a spirit from another (non-physical) dimension and form it a body with your own power - which (this is the half and the bit I tend not to go into) could extend to 'summon a spirit which was once a creature, and has passed on, returning to Cephiro - but which still exists as a conciousness within the heart of Cephiro - forming it a body from your magic and it's idea of its identity. Er. So, basically giving ghosts a form to interact with the physical world, and as you control their access to the physical world you have control over them and BASICALLY THIS SOUNDS LIKE A REALLY BAD IDEA WHEN I WRITE IT OUT IN FULL BUT part of me believes Fyula existed as a flesh-and-blood creature once who Clef was friends with and now is a summonable spirit um SORRY FYULA???)
Ooh, ghosts as summons! That could be a fun theory to play with. *gets crazed look in eyes* SO MUCH ANGST POTENTIAL. Like, would you have to be friends with the creature before they died to get them as a summon? Meaning Ascot saw a bunch of his friends die twice? Or would you have to kill them yourself? What if summons were formed from the ghosts of people that died in Cephiro? And Summoners were meant to soothe the troubled spirits that haunt the world? What if Ascot SEES DEAD PEOPLE?!

Okay, two other things I think should be pondered: What happens to the summons if the Summoner leaves Cephiro, and what happens to them if the Summoner dies?
I personally think a Summoner wouldn't be able to actually summon anything outside the bounds of Cephiro, but the summons would remain physically unharmed in their little pocket dimension. However, since I also believe that some regular interaction with the creatures is necessary, going a long time without summoning would just ruin that. It may also be possible for summons to fade from existence entirely in said pocket dimension if left long enough. Like, there could be stories of Summoners who neglected to bring out a creature for decades and when they try to summon them again, they can't.
As for if the Summoner dies? It depends. I think the ones in the pocket dimension would die with them, as the dimension only exists for the Summoner. Any that are out, on the other hand, I think they'd survive. But, as sickness and dying of old age don't seem to be much of a thing in Cephiro, that means most Summoners who die would do so too suddenly to make any final summons. So, yeah, most die with their Summoner.
If your headcanon for Ascot's backstory doesn't make me want to cry, I probably won't believe it.

suzanami

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Re: Prejudice and the Nature of the Beast Summon
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2015, 12:42:34 AM »
I don't have anything to add other than I think Ferio mentioned that he borrowed the bird beast from Clef.
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Mokonalord

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Re: Prejudice and the Nature of the Beast Summon
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2015, 02:06:52 AM »
I don't have anything to add other than I think Ferio mentioned that he borrowed the bird beast from Clef.
Oh. That would actually make perfect sense and explain what happened to the bird.

...

Yeah, um, Clef, that one thanks was totally sincere. Really. Not meant to be sarcastic at all. *whistles innocently* Absolutely swell of you to help out Ferio and all. Respect.
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Mokonalord

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Re: Prejudice and the Nature of the Beast Summon
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2015, 03:08:19 PM »
Okay, so I was flailing about on the Council Kik Chat over Ascot using a hexagram in his magic all "Double Rainbow! What does it MEAN?!" cause I'd tried doing my own research but I kept coming up with sources that were going on about how it was satanic and 666!!MARK OF THE BEAST!! and really not helping. Got some fun stuff to think about from everybody on the chat, but eventually, Down and her Magic Library pointed me towards the Seal of Solomon:
Quote
This ring variously gave Solomon the power to command demons, genies (or jinni), or to speak with animals. Due to the proverbial wisdom of Solomon, his signet ring, or its supposed design, came to be seen as an amulet or talisman, or a symbol or character in medieval and Renaissance-era magic, occultism and alchemy.

Significance achieved! Also of interest to note is how, in the manga, we only see that symbol as either a sort of Mashin signature (hexagram with circle and letter in the center), once when Mokona's conjuring that flying egg-thing, and in Ascot's magic (both when he's summoning beasts and when he's using an elemental spell). Make of that what you will.

EDIT: My bad. We do see Clef with that symbol at least once, when he's looking for the Road to the Pillar. If I've missed any other instances, please let me know! I fully admit to not being nearly as attentive to pages without Ascot. ;)
« Last Edit: September 26, 2015, 12:22:56 PM by Mokonalord »
If your headcanon for Ascot's backstory doesn't make me want to cry, I probably won't believe it.

Mokonalord

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Re: Prejudice and the Nature of the Beast Summon
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2016, 05:20:28 PM »
Connected the dots on something a while back, and kept meaning to make another post, but for some reason or another, I kept putting it off. I'm honestly kicking myself for not catching it sooner.

It's the gems.

We've seen before that gems in Cephiro can have storage capability. They might very well be able to hold live creatures. But then, what if the gems had limits to what they could hold? Whether we're talking physical space limitations or data limitations, giant living creatures would probably be one of the most space consuming things to store.

In other words, that gem sash Ascot wears in both the first and second season ain't just bling, my friends. It's got a purpose other than winning him the Cephiro's Most Bejeweled designation.

This also alters one of my other theories (but it was an iffy theory anyway), my idea of what would happen to beasts not out if their Summoner dies. Since they're linked to the gems, as long as nothing happens to those, it should be possible to recover beasts from dead Summoners. Might require some magic hacking, though, cause come on, you wouldn't want to make it easy for anyone else to summon your beasties.
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Re: Prejudice and the Nature of the Beast Summon
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2016, 10:08:02 PM »
Yeah, I've always thought they were stored in the gems. Like Pokémon
Should have wished for unicorns.

Re: Prejudice and the Nature of the Beast Summon
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2017, 01:24:07 AM »
Imo it's fair simple: the summoners in Cephiro have a bad rep, and like Ascot's they may have given too much freedom to untamed creatures and abused their power, especially before Cephiro got out of control without the pilar protection. Ascot is just one of them (or the last of them, maybe)

Mokonalord

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Re: Prejudice and the Nature of the Beast Summon
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2017, 06:04:43 AM »
Imo it's fair simple: the summoners in Cephiro have a bad rep, and like Ascot's they may have given too much freedom to untamed creatures and abused their power, especially before Cephiro got out of control without the pilar protection. Ascot is just one of them (or the last of them, maybe)
Cephiro having a history of bad summoners is another possibility, yes, or perhaps just them being blamed for regular monster attacks. It could also be that summoning lends itself more to abuse of power than other forms of magic, considering that it involves one person directing the actions of other at least semi-sentient creatures. Though, given that Emeraude was constantly praying for peace, I can’t see a bad summoner being able to cause too much trouble, but enough of them being enough of a nuisance to get a bad reputation seems possible. Really, any relationship in which one party holds almost all the control is very susceptible to abuse of some sort.

I like to add elements/stipulations to summoning that give the beasts agency of their own for that reason. For example, while it’s possible to force a beast to do exactly what you want, it takes a lot more energy/willpower, so it’s in a Summoner’s best interest to have them acting voluntarily. In the anime, Vigor and Capella (canine creature who Hikaru ‘adopted’ and armored sea monster who Ascot controlled at the Selece Shrine) were, IMHO, good demonstrations of how an adaption can positively expand on the original source. While you can infer from Ascot’s words in the manga that the beasts are separate entities from himself, in the anime, that’s depicted by those two acting contrary to what Ascot wants and him having to convince them otherwise. Capella especially. After all, there’s no point in taking over a creature’s mind if they don’t have a will of their own.

As such, I like to think that for a good Summoner, their relationship with the ones they summon is a partnership freely entered into by all parties. It’s possible to force the beast into service, but only by overpowering their will, and the strongest beasts tend to have strong wills of their own. In addition, I headcanon that particularly strong creatures can break out of whatever extra-dimensional space the Summoner keeps them in on their own.

Anyway, back to the ‘Too many Summoners gave themselves a bad name’ hypothesis, I’d think if that were the case, it would be something brought up in canon. I mostly dropped the idea of Summoners being the problem because when Ascot’s describing the issue, it comes across like peoples’ problems are with the beasts themselves. Also, in that scenario, Umi’s advice shouldn’t have been “Stand up for them!” but rather “Stand up for yourself!” Doesn’t mean it’s not possible, just doesn’t quite fit neatly into canon as we know it.

Don’t think I’ve seen you around before, so nice to meet you!
If your headcanon for Ascot's backstory doesn't make me want to cry, I probably won't believe it.

Re: Prejudice and the Nature of the Beast Summon
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2017, 12:33:50 AM »
Imo it's fair simple: the summoners in Cephiro have a bad rep, and like Ascot's they may have given too much freedom to untamed creatures and abused their power, especially before Cephiro got out of control without the pilar protection. Ascot is just one of them (or the last of them, maybe)
Cephiro having a history of bad summoners is another possibility, yes, or perhaps just them being blamed for regular monster attacks. It could also be that summoning lends itself more to abuse of power than other forms of magic, considering that it involves one person directing the actions of other at least semi-sentient creatures. Though, given that Emeraude was constantly praying for peace, I can’t see a bad summoner being able to cause too much trouble, but enough of them being enough of a nuisance to get a bad reputation seems possible. Really, any relationship in which one party holds almost all the control is very susceptible to abuse of some sort.

I like to add elements/stipulations to summoning that give the beasts agency of their own for that reason. For example, while it’s possible to force a beast to do exactly what you want, it takes a lot more energy/willpower, so it’s in a Summoner’s best interest to have them acting voluntarily. In the anime, Vigor and Capella (canine creature who Hikaru ‘adopted’ and armored sea monster who Ascot controlled at the Selece Shrine) were, IMHO, good demonstrations of how an adaption can positively expand on the original source. While you can infer from Ascot’s words in the manga that the beasts are separate entities from himself, in the anime, that’s depicted by those two acting contrary to what Ascot wants and him having to convince them otherwise. Capella especially. After all, there’s no point in taking over a creature’s mind if they don’t have a will of their own.

As such, I like to think that for a good Summoner, their relationship with the ones they summon is a partnership freely entered into by all parties. It’s possible to force the beast into service, but only by overpowering their will, and the strongest beasts tend to have strong wills of their own. In addition, I headcanon that particularly strong creatures can break out of whatever extra-dimensional space the Summoner keeps them in on their own.

Anyway, back to the ‘Too many Summoners gave themselves a bad name’ hypothesis, I’d think if that were the case, it would be something brought up in canon. I mostly dropped the idea of Summoners being the problem because when Ascot’s describing the issue, it comes across like peoples’ problems are with the beasts themselves. Also, in that scenario, Umi’s advice shouldn’t have been “Stand up for them!” but rather “Stand up for yourself!” Doesn’t mean it’s not possible, just doesn’t quite fit neatly into canon as we know it.

Don’t think I’ve seen you around before, so nice to meet you!



imo its not that the summoners  in general were evil or something like that, but like you said, it must be hard  to train and deal with other creatures, and if the summoner and the animal were not bonded enough, or if they didn't have enough power, the monsters can get out of control and the villagers who can't defend themselves were fearful of the powerful monsters and the summoners by association. 

After  Emeraude got depressed, and stopped to take care of Cephiro, the creatures were out of control and i believe the summoners  didn't even care to stop them, so probably the villagers didn't want the summoners nearby because they were also related with the monsters. That's why i think they didn't have a good rep at all.

Thank you so much for the wecoming!
« Last Edit: December 11, 2017, 03:40:55 AM by milady »