Cephiro

Lantis' Space Pony and Other Questions of CrossWorld Magic

Mokonalord

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Lantis' Space Pony and Other Questions of CrossWorld Magic
« on: July 01, 2015, 12:45:00 AM »
It started with an anon on my tumblr, then spawned a kik conversation. First, the chat:








Also, springdelirium made a reply to the initial tumblr post, so please go check that out here.

So all these wonderful people have given me tons of new ideas and theories to play with. Anybody else got something to say on the matter?
If your headcanon for Ascot's backstory doesn't make me want to cry, I probably won't believe it.

VKiera

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Re: Lantis' Space Pony and Other Questions of CrossWorld Magic
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2015, 03:40:35 AM »
Okay well *cracks knuckles* you asked.

When it comes to magic/powers, weapons working in other countries I've always looked at it as the 'counties' are all in the same 'universe' that Cephiro is in. Though each nations has it's own 'laws' they're still part of the same 'universe' so there are universal rules. Ever Notice how usually it's referred to the Knights as being from another 'world' aka another dimension, but Autozam, Farhen, ect are referred to as other nations, countries, not 'another world' (at least I think? Need to go get my mangas out) even though they are technically different planets. So while they are separate nations, they're still in the same universe. So if you can use magic in Cephiro, you should still be able to use it else where. It is a skill, an ability that'd driven by ones own strength usually, like you know how computers from Earth still work on Mars? I think perhaps how effective that magic is might be affected by where you are, but I don't think it negates it to go to another nation. But idk, just my own theories.

It's also why the knights can't use magic back on earth, since well, different dimensions, not the same universe, though Mokona is able to yank them to Cephiro with magic, so who knows?

On a small side note, I've always wondered what Cephio looks like from a distance? I mean you know, does it look like a pretty globe like Earth? Since the other nations have very distinctive shapes I always wondered if it did to...

Anyways, back to magic space ponies.

Idk how you'd explain the space travel, unless you assume Lantis has enough magic/will to jump between worlds, build a road, ect. There must be some form of travel between the nations, otherwise they wouldn't even know about one another. I mean even before this you have to wonder is there no trade between any of these nations? I remember reading somewhere that it's stated that Autozam's major exports are mecha and battleships, that's dandy...but who are they trading them to exactly? None of the other invading nations seem to use them, though they are aware of them. San Yung knows what Automaz's tech looks like in the manga, enough to be able to tell it apart from the Mashine.

Clef says something in the manga about 'roads' become open to Cephiro once the Pillar died because the barrier she kept up was lost when she died. By that, wouldn't that mean if you left Cephiro you could take these roads to wherever you wished? As long as you have the strength to do so?

I take the magic that the people wield in Cephiro to be self internalized, the magic they have doesn't come from Cephiro itself, per say. It's more like they have the ability to learn magic and the magic they learn affects Cephiro's own internal magic. So it's one magic effecting another magic. So in theory someone from Autozam could come to Cephiro and learn magic and still use it even if they went back to Autozam, they just couldn't directly affect Autozam with it, since it in itself doesn't have it's own internal magic? Same with the other nations, depending on how their own world's magic functions.

I also never took Autozam's tech to be magic driven, it is will power driven, but not magic per say, it's more of turning the electrical signals/ brain waives in your brain/body into numeric code? Something more along the lines of being jacked into the matrix, so to speak? I'm pretty sure the FTO has some other power source a la batteries of some kind, than just Eagle's willpower so to speak. He just pilots it, instructs it with willpower, though you notice that FTO does have other controls in it, one that's you use by well, touching them, as in buttons ect. So when in the manga Eagle talks about 'giving to much of himself' I never quite took it as like its sucked his life force out so much as...he's overloaded his internal wiring? The human body's nervous system (if we assume people from Autozam are physically the same as people from Earth) is only made to withstand so much strain, or 'traffic' so he's overloaded his system, used it too much, damaged it beyond repair (in autozam) basically his internal wiring is fried and failing and misfiring. I think of it of the same way they pilot jaegers in movie Pacific Rim, they talk about how pilots died in the beginning because it was too much for the central nervous system to handle.

Also if you look at one of Clamp's newer works, Tsubasa Reservoir Chronicle, it has several main characters who can use magic, Fai, Sakura, ect and they retain these power, no matter what world they end up on, even ones without magic of their own.

Actually they drop into a world call Infinity, based a highly mechanized/advanced technology (they even have life sized battle dolls controlled by mental energy) run by the Mafia and they run into alternate world versions of Eagle, Lantis and Geo. So if you take Clamp's mutiverse cannon into account, if you have magic you can use it no matter if the world you're in has it's own version or not. In this world Lantis and the others have no magic actually, even though there's a huge battle with magic in it.

Wow I rattled on there. Ha. I could go on for Autozam for days, but I digress.
Legend says when you can't sleep,
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So that's why I can never sleep properly...
Who the bloody hell is dreaming about me because so help me God,
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suzanami

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Re: Lantis' Space Pony and Other Questions of CrossWorld Magic
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2015, 04:17:15 PM »
mmm good stuff here yasss.  sorry if I don't totally contribute directly to the space pony issue but I have related stuff falling out of my brain and this is on-topic enough, so here it goes.  ((oh my god this got so long I'm so sorry woW)

I agree that the magic of Cephiro, Fahren and Chizeta are rooted in the same thing as Autozam's thought-energy -- that is, it's all different expressions of the Will.  Autozam just went in a different direction than the other countries.  and really, I'd say "we use our psychic energy to keep the planet turning" is certainly magic, even if they don't call it that ;)  and hey, Cephirans would call our airplanes "magic"...  that whole idea that "magic" is just something you don't understand yet.  ... that means that in Autozam, some people are more helpful in supplying thought-energy to uphold the country than others, since everyone's Wills are different (not everyone in the magic-using countries is able to use magic, so it goes to say that some people have stronger thought-energy).  and it makes sense that Eagle, someone with a Will so strong that he was in the running for Cephiro's Pillar, is so run-down, because he certainly is pulling more than his fair weight, just by the nature of the system.  maybe it's more fair than the Pillar system but it's obviously very flawed, too!
I think Lantis would contribute his thought-energy to Autozam.  I think (total headcanon here) it's just a law of nature there, that the country just seeps your mental energy if you're a resident.  people can probably shield that or work with it to better allocate their energy, but you have to learn how to do that so I can imagine Lantis getting drained really badly his first few weeks in Autozam before he learns how to manage it all.  because everyone has to pull their weight, everyone has to help uphold the country -- at least, that's the impression I've always gotten.  likewise I think Eagle would be able to learn Cephiran magic (I think, like the Knights, he's a foreigner capable of being opened to it, and if he'd become Cephiro's Pillar, he'd have to work in some kind of magic in addition to his Willpower)

all that said (deep breath)  I think the Willpower energy you already work in, is going to be a part of you no matter what.  I think Willpower Makes Stuff Happen is a law of the universe.  like VK said, Earth is in a totally different universe than Cephiro, Autozam, Chizeta and Fahren.  so while, like Down said, the manifestation of that Willpower is understood differently by the different lands, it's still universal.  Lantis grew up learning Cephiran magic, he's incredibly skilled in it, it is part of who he is.  Lantis' Will rivals Eagle's and Hikaru's, and I think that if he wants to, he can use his native magic anywhere in the universe.  I don't think just anyone could, but dat Willpower.  again, like Down also said, the invading countries expect their technologies/magics to work in Cephiro, so I think that you can bring your own style to the party if you're strong enough to rock it.  so I think Cephiran magic YES would work in Autozam, but it wouldn't be easy since Autozam itself, while subject to the same natural laws, seems to have its own way of interpreting it.  yes, Earth computers work on Mars but things like gravity and atmosphere are different on other planets so the translation of technology may get complicated???  mmn, that's not a very good analogy but it's all I've got atm.

the roads seem to be what are used to travel between countries, roads created out of Will/energy.  again, Willpower is just a natural law.  although it seems that "space" may not be the same as Earth's universe's "outer space" but at least functions more like Earth's oceans that separate countries.  because oh my god Chizeta's shape cannot possibly orbit according to our universe's natural laws, like, the hell is that thing?  anyway, I do think that if your Willpower is strong enough, you can direct those roads wherever you wish within the universe.  something VK said just rocked my world: I don't think there's anything that says this universe only has four countries.  just that these three are interested in Cephiro.  the idea that Autozam is trading to other countries that may have similar Will/energy situations as their own is blowing my mind, I've never even considered this.  anyway, I don't think Lantis is strong enough to cruise around the galaxy (at least if he's lacking spaceships like Eagle has) but he definitely wanted to go home, and he's strong enough to do that.  also it seems you can probably breathe fine in "space"...


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I also never took Autozam's tech to be magic driven, it is will power driven, but not magic per say, it's more of turning the electrical signals/ brain waives in your brain/body into numeric code? Something more along the lines of being jacked into the matrix, so to speak? I'm pretty sure the FTO has some other power source a la batteries of some kind, than just Eagle's willpower so to speak. He just pilots it, instructs it with willpower, though you notice that FTO does have other controls in it, one that's you use by well, touching them, as in buttons ect.

ya, same!  Autozam's machines are definitely machines that need maintenance and fuel and are, like, machines.  but I think their strength is in thought-energy.  the way you describe it is really really good so I'm quoting it here for emphasis, I love this, and all the stuff about the human body's internal wiring.  gahh all so good.


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On a small side note, I've always wondered what Cephio looks like from a distance? I mean you know, does it look like a pretty globe like Earth? Since the other nations have very distinctive shapes I always wondered if it did to...

I always thought it looked kind of like a floating island.  don't we sort of see it that way at some point, at least in the anime?  it looks like crap because it's crumbling but I like to think that it has a similar concept when it's healthy.  I feel like there's some manga promo art somewhere...  of course, that would mean it's possible to walk off the edge (it's flat??)  but ~magic~ probably makes it so you'll just loop around to the other side again, idefk.  Cephiro is a weird place.  I think it's weird even for the universe it's in...


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It's also why the knights can't use magic back on earth, since well, different dimensions, not the same universe, though Mokona is able to yank them to Cephiro with magic, so who knows?

I think Mokona is outside of both universes, since he created them both and seems to be outside of time and space as either universe knows it.  I don't know that he uses magic to transport the Knights as much as he uses GOD-LIKE POWERS.


sorry, I rehashed a lot of what VK and Down said, I'm just dumping meta out of my ears at the moment don't mind me.  but gahh, I absolutely love love the idea that magic from different countries has different directions/styles, that's awesome, Down.  and VK, you're definitely in the right company for rattling on and on.  we tend to write big walls of meta when we get excited, too... although this is prooobbably a record for me.  (I'm stoked to have an Eagle aficionado around btw, as I don't think we have any resident Autozam experts already.)

Down

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Re: Lantis' Space Pony and Other Questions of CrossWorld Magic
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2015, 11:17:09 PM »
This is not my real reply because midnight on a work night but

trying to work out HOW Cephiro could POSSIBLY be considered a planet given that the ocean seems to FALL OFF THE EDGE (I think?? I refuse to go look for the images right now XDDDD) and it's disc shaped and so on

and HOW IS THERE SUNLIGHT IS THERE A SUN HOW ARE THE LANDS RELATED TO IT? EACH OTEHR? WHAT IS THIS NONSENSE IS THIS THE DISCWORLD FLYING THROUGH SPACE ON THE BACK OF A TURTLE HELD UP BY FOUR ELEPHANTS

because Autozam looks like a planet?? MAYBE???

THESE ARE THINGS WHICH KEEP ME UP AT NIGHT XDD

(also OTHER PEOPLE BEING WORDYYYYYYYYY YES THIS IS AWESOMENESS HI *THROWS LOVE AT THREAD*)

VKiera

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Re: Lantis' Space Pony and Other Questions of CrossWorld Magic
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2015, 11:59:41 PM »
I'm incredibly sleepy, so I apologize in advance if any of this comes out making no sense. Me thinks I need a nap.

As for Autozam's 'mental energy' being an equivalent to magic, I can see that, from a certain angle. It is a form of 'you wish/will it then it is' sort of influence, so I can agree with you there.

Though for my own personal headcannon I don't think Autozam, as a world, actually well 'drinks', for lack of a better term, it's peoples mental energy. I think of mental energy as a sort of finite resource, akin to fossil fuels in our world. It's not necessary for the worlds survival, I mean we could stop using oil tomorrow and the Earth wouldn't break in two and stop spinning, so to speak, but our world, as in our civilization, would stop. We've become so completely reliant on it in nearly every aspect of our lives that we pretty much can't stop using it, with out taking the world back to pre industrial revolution ways of living.

So that's how Autozam has become, entirely dependent on a finite resource, one that also is bad for it's environment/atmosphere. Though I  think maybe it's not giving mental energy that's bad for their atmosphere, so much as everything they power with that mental energy puts out some form of pollution that is. On top of that, since their environment has become so bad, they can't even stop using all their tech, they have to keep using it, to close off areas in domes, to clean water to make it safe to drink, but even as they do this, they're creating more pollution. It's become a nasty catch 22 for them. Without some outside influence to change that, they're doomed.

Thus Cephiro.

Really, after all, isn't Cephio also like that in a way? Trapped in a catch 22 with the continual sacrifice of the Pillar, until outside influence (the knights) changes that? Really kind of the theme of the 2nd season. You met people, different from yourself, and you learn from them, and make a better world for it.

And yea I have no idea how Chizeta even keeps a proper orbit, lol

Around what I wonder? Do all of the countries share a 'sun'? they all orbit in similar patterns? If not then the distance between the planets/countries would vary widely depending on where in the orbit they are. Or perhaps Cephiro is at the center and the other nations orbit it perhaps? Huum...

Also, I personally feel that Autozam is the farthest away from whatever their sun source is, and it's really freaking cold there, made worse by the pollution, blocking out even more light, thus making it even colder.

Though it must be pretty close to Cephiro, since apparently you can see Cephiro form their observation platforms.

Getting off topic here a bit.

So question. Why are we going on about Lantis going to Autozam (and other countries) on a magic horse and no one seems to wonder about how the bloody hell Caldina got to Cephiro from Chizeta? It can't be that difficult to travel. I'm sure the hard part is getting into Cephiro when there's a Pillar, not leaving it. If the pillar doesn't want you to come in/like you they can just bar you from entering the land period.

As for how effective magic is outside it's native world, I think that it has to do with how much 'ability' a person has in their own world. The stronger you are, the more influence you can wield, but the price of that influence may be higher from world to world. I think it's Presea that says something in the manga about how 'will' can influence the tide of destiny itself, and I think influence is a good word to use. It's not complete control I think, even the Pillar doesn't have complete control, I mean it's not like they can shut down freewill or something. Although that would be terrifying, having an evil Pillar that tried to do that.

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  something VK said just rocked my world: I don't think there's anything that says this universe only has four countries.  just that these three are interested in Cephiro.  the idea that Autozam is trading to other countries that may have similar Will/energy situations as their own is blowing my mind, I've never even considered this.

I so totally want to do this for an alternate season two story I've been kicking around for the last year or so, but I've not clue how to do it without totally over complicating a already complicated plot!

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sorry, I rehashed a lot of what VK and Down said, I'm just dumping meta out of my ears at the moment don't mind me.  but gahh, I absolutely love love the idea that magic from different countries has different directions/styles, that's awesome, Down.  and VK, you're definitely in the right company for rattling on and on.  we tend to write big walls of meta when we get excited, too... although this is prooobbably a record for me.  (I'm stoked to have an Eagle aficionado around btw, as I don't think we have any resident Autozam experts already.)

I'd hardly call myself an expert, just someone with a lot of headcannon? XD Mostly because of aforementioned alternate MKR2 plot bunny I've been thinking about doing and some of what's in Ice and Snow talks a wee bit about Autozam's history as well.

Also I'm totally up for Cephiro being flat, like people thoughT the Earth was in ye olden times. EVEN IF IT'S HELD UP BY TURTLES, OR TITANS OR CONVENIENT PLOT FILLER.

Eeeh, so much text, sorry sorry! Totally not sorry! Makes me happy to be able to fangirl with people who understand what I'm talking about.
Legend says when you can't sleep,
it's because you're awake in someone else's dream.
So that's why I can never sleep properly...
Who the bloody hell is dreaming about me because so help me God,
I will smother them in the face with a throw pillow.

Re: Lantis' Space Pony and Other Questions of CrossWorld Magic
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2015, 03:54:17 AM »
I believe that since Mokona created the universe, the rules
that apply to the several worlds in it can't be much different from
one another. At least, the five planets that appear in MKR all seem
to share the same basic physics (gravity, planets are somehow spherical (1)
they all have breathable atmospheres and proper conditions to life
to exist on them, etc).

If we think that the planets share a common/similar physical origin
and characteristics, then it is not too farfetched to think that they all
share a similar/common "spiritual" (2) basic set of rules.
Or, at least, shared (in the past).

Cephiro would be the planet where this "spiritual" heritage was kept
more intact, and where it became an integral part of the daily life
where even children can use it (as seen in the episode where the
children had to fight their own fear and believe in themselves to help
sustain the world when it was crumbling).

Cizeta and Pharem apparently also have a strong "spiritual" force
and that can easily be seen in their use of magic and spells.
Maybe they're not so far from Cephiro itself in that respect.

We all know what has happened on Earth: once our ancient civilizations
all around the globe had rites and regarded the spiritual world and the
magical/supernatural events as something that accompanied humankind
in every moment of their lives.

It was with the development of physical technologies that the relationship
of the spiritual world with humankind estranged. Examples of that can be
found from the spiritual traditions of Native Americans to those of the
Amazonian tribes, to those of old East-Asian cultures, African peoples,
and even pre-Christian European civilizations, just to mention a few. 
They all have faded with time as mechanical prowess advanced. 
Magical/spiritual knowledge dies a little with every new generation,
and current members of ancient peoples are not so skilled in spiritual
matters as those who preceded them.

We are, in a certain way, middle-way between Cephiro an Autozam.

Autozam being the planet where mechanical/technological advancement
has overshadowed the ancient spiritual knowledge. Now, it doesn't follow
that "necessarily" spiritual/magical power is completely lost in Autozam,
is just that the technocracy they have developed has overshadowed all other
ways of Knowledge.  Eagle knows that, and he has faith in the Pillar to start
with, and that itself clearly shows that there is still knowledge of (and hope in)
magic/willpower. They know magical/spiritual skills can be part of a person.

So, in a way, all the five planets that are known to exist in the MKR-related
universe have (or have had) some sort of magic/spiritual development and
it manifests in different ways in each planet. And the spiritual part of their
heritage may have had a common origin (namely Mokona).(3)

Going back to the original question that sparkled this debate, I believe that being
a Cephirian, and living in such an important position as he was in, Lantis must
have had a deep knowledge of magic, and must have been capable of using it
with strong power, independently of where in the universe he is.

Magic would not depend of where one was born, but on how one is willing
to approach it.  Hikaru is the first Earthling to learn magic, because she's
open to learn it.  And it takes a bit of time for Umi and Fuu to believe in magic
and to learn how to use it.

We have Eagle, and we all know that he is also willing to use magic and the spiritual
power of the Pillar in order to save his planet.

And since an apple falls to the ground on earth, and we know it may also fall
to the ground on Cephiro, Cizeta, Autozam and Pharem, giving credit to
a common physical law, there may also be common magical laws that apply
to all the planets, and one spell can work the same if cast whether on Cephiro,
the Earth or any other planet. 

It wouldn't be a kind of magic in each place, but the same magic. Just with different
manifestations (and different stages of development) in each world.  Magic should also
work in space. Magic itself is not dependent on physics (it is a separate entity), but it
certainly can change the physics and material properties of a given world or part of the world.

Those were my thoughts for tonight.


Notes:

1- Earth, Cizeta, Pharem and Autozam are spherical bodies, I'm willing to
extrapolate that shape to Cephiro too. I know there may be some contention
to that, specially if we take into account the last image in the MKR section of the
South Side artbook, but I'm willing to go into a deeper debate of that matter
in a future occasion.

2- At this moment I fail to find a proper word that can encompass
the words magic/beliefs/willpower/supernatural at the same time

3- If magic/spiritual skills developed/originated independently in each
planet, and have nothing in common, then this whole post is useless.
But I believe Mokona's power influenced not only the physical laws of all the
planets, but also the spiritual ones.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2015, 03:57:41 AM by Ruben77 »

Mokonalord

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Re: Lantis' Space Pony and Other Questions of CrossWorld Magic
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2015, 11:40:18 AM »
Sweet Mokona S'mores, did this just bring out the Down in everybody? It's amazing!

Now, as the originator of this whole train of thought, I should explain a little more of my original theories that were dashed by the space pony. Gotta go to work soon, so can't get too wordy.

Basically, I was working on the idea that while other worlds had magic, the source was different, and magic was usually limited to within the planet's borders. Since Cephiro's source is willpower, however, those other forms of magic would also be fully usable there providing the person had a strong enough will.

The difficulty would arise with people coming from Cephiro to other places. Like, they wouldn't lose their magic entirely on other worlds, but they would have to use that world's source to get it to work. For example, I had this whole mental scenario of Ascot going to Autozam and finding out he couldn't summon the usual way, and having to get Zazu to help him develop some sort of holographic interface he could summon his beasts to so he could still interact with them. So while on Autozam, Ascot has digimon. I blame Ascot's English VA entirely for this. ::)

So, yeah, if Lantis can not only summon his spirit animal on Autozam, but said spirit animal could actually travel to other worlds- Well, that throws the whole 'magic restricted to planet's borders' idea out.
If your headcanon for Ascot's backstory doesn't make me want to cry, I probably won't believe it.

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Re: Lantis' Space Pony and Other Questions of CrossWorld Magic
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2015, 12:54:36 PM »
...I need a tl;dr for this entire thread, it is way too warm to think right now. I'll wait.
Should have wished for unicorns.

suzanami

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Re: Lantis' Space Pony and Other Questions of CrossWorld Magic
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2015, 01:57:23 PM »
the question is, with all this tl;dr (I'M NOT SURE WHAT HAPPENED) did we even answer your question?