Cephiro

When you think about Rayearth and in your usual fic, which version of the canon do you default to?  Anime or manga? (I'd ask OVA but I don't think it's what anyone defaults to)


Personally, I kind of have a mix of the two.  It's mostly the anime storyline since there's more stuff to work with from it, but I insert things from the manga where things conflict because the MKR2 anime made a lot of fscking stupid plot choices.

• Presea never died.
• Alcyone did.  Debonair/Nova exist but Debonair never used Alcyone.
• Eagle doesn't die either.
• Ferio gives Fuu the rings, not orbs.
• The journey to/after Eterna is the manga version.
• The battle to become Pillar between Hikaru and Eagle is the manga version.
• Usually Mokona is God but occasionally not?
• There's more but now I can't think of anything.

Manga.... almost always.   Then again, to be entirely honest,  I never finished watching S1 until this year....  I only just realised this as I was watching some episodes and was like WTF?  I don?t remember this.  Then realised I never saw it.   Oops....

I mean, the anime has more U/C shippiness for me, but I reallly don?t care.  Then again I typicaly go all out on crack universe, I swear.  I mean... laws and restrictions and shit, what are all those and where did they come from.  I live in fanon now, obviously.   Sometimes I think something is canon, and then I remember that it actually came from MY head or is part of Down?s PY universe and then I question my knowledge completely. 

I shoudl rewatch it all again.

(Who?s up for a rewatch and chat again?)

Manga, mainly. I pull in extra bits of background from the anime, but my main plot is usually manga. I do drag in all the extra anime world-building, though, so I guess I'm pretty similar to yours, Suz?

..........Then I have so much extra world-building for the PY/Weight of Water 'Verse that it infiltrates EVERYTHING ELSE if I'm not careful. XD (And Mils's fic! *always amused by that in a cackling EVIL GENIUS manner~*) And Cephiro has a couple of distinct real-world bits of medieval social/economic/political structure I default back to for anchoring the world when I'm writing, which has a lot to do with the fact I was studying them at the same point at which I started writing PY and all this head-canon/fanon-structuring happened. XD

The only one I tend to write ENTIRELY separately is if I'm writing OVA, which I do on occasion. But, I mean, I've got over 100 fics or bits of fic floating about my pc and the internet by now, and there are a couple of distinct 'verses of linked bits, but the vast majority are either complete AU or manga-centric. ^^ (Also because the OVA story I really want to write is a dark struggling little thing about Clef and Ferio and Eagle and the repopulation of Cephiro, post-OVA, which a) is Clef/Ferio and b) wants to be serious for all that it's crack. And also dark! Because it's the OVA equivalent of season 2 and Ferio dealing with what he did in the OVA and before it, and both of them missing earth/the Knights, though they barely knew them, and trying to work out what the Right Thing To Do is and so on and. XD)

Excuse me because this reply of mine might be quite big. xD I had to reassess all of this for the big fic I wrote during NaNo a few years ago.

I kind of use the best parts of the canons and mix them. For example, even from the OAV, I use the story that Hikaru is originally from Hokkaido. (This is mentioned very briefly in the dub; I have never seen the Japanese version!) Otherwise, I use the manga as the basis for everything, plus some fun things from the anime.

• Like suzanami, Ferio gave Fuu the rings, not the orbs, and Presea is still alive. Sierra is not a Thing.
• Mokona is always the creator! He doesn't appear very much/at all in post-series II fics.
• Nova never happened because that entire arc in the anime just annoyed me. (I'm sorry.)
• The girls did meet the representatives from the three other countries, per the anime.
• There's that little side comic that explains Hikaru defeated her father and he went travelling, which has always stuck in my mind as canon too.
• The girls can travel to and from Cephiro freely as they can at the end of the manga. In my headcanon they have to keep paying for entry to the Tokyo Tower to do this, but do one day manage to get there from Shiba Park and end up somewhere else.

I decided from Kuu's uniform that she attends CLAMP School, and that Fuu will follow her there. (In my fic, Umi and Hikaru apply there for senior high too.) I also have the headcanon that it's her in CLAMP School Detectives that lost her pet peacock. xD Oh, and I also think that the uniform in the OAV (similar to Kuu's in the anime/manga) is also CLAMP School.

Um, I guess this is all headcanon. xD Myself and Revolutionnaire have our own fanon, you could say. I hope she doesn't mind me mentioning that we're fleshing out our backstories for Ferio and Clef, respectively, at the moment.

My canon is also a mix of the manga and anime, I just pick and mix different parts to suit my own needs because I do what I want.

Actually, it's pretty much what Kelly Camisado has said. Although, I suppose Sierra could be a thing, in which Presea is still alive and also has a twin sister who she mentions from time to time and sometimes visits.

And as for Mokona. Well, he is always God, but I can never decide how Godly Mokona is without going off on a massive theological tangent.

Quote from: Revolutionnaire on March 04, 2013, 07:49:08 PM
Although, I suppose Sierra could be a thing, in which Presea is still alive and also has a twin sister who she mentions from time to time and sometimes visits.

Hmm I'm always pretty grossed out by Sierra's existence, but you're completely right.  What I hate is the whole "whoops we killed off a character that we still need LET'S GIVE HER A SECRET TWIN AND NOBODY WILL GUESS this is rly good story-telling".  I guess there's no reason Presea can't have a twin sister as long as it's not this ridiculous plot device!

Quote from: suzanami on March 02, 2013, 03:07:45 AM
Personally, I kind of have a mix of the two.  It's mostly the anime storyline since there's more stuff to work with from it, but I insert things from the manga where things conflict because the MKR2 anime made a lot of fscking stupid plot choices.

• Presea never died.
• Alcyone did.  Debonair/Nova exist but Debonair never used Alcyone.
• Eagle doesn't die either.
• Ferio gives Fuu the rings, not orbs.
• The journey to/after Eterna is the manga version.
• The battle to become Pillar between Hikaru and Eagle is the manga version.
• Usually Mokona is God but occasionally not?
• There's more but now I can't think of anything.

This is basically my blend of canon too, except sometimes there's Debonair/Nova and sometimes there's not. Also, characterizations in general are more like in the manga than the anime (I know there's not a huge difference for most characters, but for example, even though Hikaru's characterization differences are relatively subtle, I still vastly prefer her in the manga.)

Quote from: Revolutionnaire on March 04, 2013, 07:49:08 PM
And as for Mokona. Well, he is always God, but I can never decide how Godly Mokona is without going off on a massive theological tangent.

I would be fascinated by a massive theological tangent! I go off on a fair amount of them on my own for Rayearth, what with the Mashin and the god-king role of the Pillar, but I tend to drag in more of a shinto and/or pagan basis for most of it, because of the ~spirits~ which I tend to relate to genii loci? Hence why they aren't so much mentioned in the second series and seem to be far less present than humans and creatures in the first - because Cephiro is dying, they are fading too. (Shinto because that's (as strong part of) the culture the Knights and CLAMP come from, european pagan because fantasy as a genre is built on a foundation of western european history etc etc). The 'donning of the mashin/rune gods' goes to high fantasy for medieval knighting ceremonies and such in significance, but also back to invoking God/gods/saints/other forces in a kind of shamanistic pattern (which underlays a lot of christian ceremonial stuff as well) and I'm pretty certain that you get similar things in shinto, whereas in buddhism I think normally you would invoke via a chant/prayers/need etc and that force would manifest but not IN you or about you in the same way?

.......................................but I really really need to get more research in before I go off down that path, heh. Which is the other reason why I go with european paganism (celtic or germanic ^^;) to underpin my views of what's going on a lot. I know more about it! ^^;;;

BACK TO THE TOPIC - I had forgotten the skits. I take most of the skit-comics CLAMP drew for Rayearth as canon - Lantis being a hug-monster, Eagle with cake and lock-picks (even though he doesn't use them in the main manga I still take that as canon. XD), Ascot's friends cheering him on - Hikaru having beaten her father when she was young so he's off on some shounen manga quest somewhere - I discount the Sierra and Clef one because Sierra, and the Nova one because Nova... XD

I really need to finish translating the interview Ookawa did about her writing the second season of the anime. Must Remember!

Also YES CLAMP school references. I fail to do anything with them, but they're there in the OVA and Kuu is in the manga, for me. XD

Quote from: Down on March 05, 2013, 12:25:30 PM
I would be fascinated by a massive theological tangent!

Okay. So. I mostly studied Christian Theology at university, whilst I did opt in to modules on other religions, Classical Theism is my gig.

Mokona explicitly states that he is the Creator, let's temporarily assume that this is analogous to the God of Classical Theism (God/YHWH/Allah), now what I wonder is how Godly Mokona actually is in itself. I mean, he spent season one larking about as a rabbit type creature, how could be an omnipresent deity and be a team pet at the same time.

So, take Jesus, Christian scholars tend to be in three schools of though when it comes to Jesus. One: Jesus is homoiousious (similar to God). Two: Jesus is homoousious (is the same as God) or three: Jesus is both homoiousious and homoousious at the same time. Other arguments are whether Jesus is wholly human, wholly divine or is Jesus both wholly human and wholly divine at the same time. _{Let's not go into how.}

Back to Mokona; is Mokona similar to the Creator, in which he is a wholly rabbit type creature who sometimes acts as a channel for the Creator. Or is Mokona wholly divine and is the same as the Creator, in which Mokona is the physical embodiment (or even, avatar (which is concept found in Hinduism)) of the Creator who puts on a persona as a rabbit type being. Or, is Mokona both divine and a rabbit being?

tl;dr Is Mokona God who walks the earth in the form of a rabbit? Or is Mokona a rabbit who sometimes channels God? Or both?

Welp, that's the short version, I did actually write an essay about the representation of God in fiction, which along with various Western examples, also included Mokona and Haruhi Suzumiya. Ha.

Or maybe, I'm thinking too much about this and maybe one day in 1994, CLAMP said "let's make Mokona God! They'll never see this coming!" and that was the end of that. ಠ_ಠ

I prefer the manga. It is too short though. I do enjoy the anime. The best part is that the civilians are portrayed in the anime, and it is good that they changed their mindsets for good and the country was led to a new, happier state with no Pillar.

It is better in the manga that the girls could get to visit anytime they wanted.

By the way, I also loved that scene at the final of anime season 1, when the spirits of Zagato and Emeraude embraced, as they were United in the afterlife. I wish they got it in the manga and not just in the artbook.

Mostly the anime for me..
My season 1 based fic:
-Alcyone dies because of disobedience
-Presea doesn't die
-Zagato doesn't die(the Magic knights question his objective and they make amends)
-Emeraude doesn't die
-Emeraude abolishes the pillar system
-Zagato and Emeraude live happily

Season 2 based fic:
-Zagato and Emeraude are given a second chance at life if only to pay a price
-Eagle lives

Mine is mostly the manga canon, with a few bits from the anime fitted in here and there. For instance, the anime's story of how Eagle and Lantis met has been adopted into my headcanon.

Mostly the manga, I read it first, and due to that I found certain things about the Anime kind of.... distressing? disappointing. I like the added time the anime gave- the interaction between characters we didn't get to see in the manga because of how short it is. But I've opted to ignore a selection of things...

• Presea's death
• Debonair and Nova
• Eagle's death
• The girls not being able to get back to Cephiro after everything

And a few other things I can't remember right now.

In general, keep the added interactions, drop the anime-only plot points. ^^;;;

Manga reigns supreme, thus says Mokonalord. I tend to accept anime additions so long as they don't contradict the facts/feel of the manga. Some highlights:

• Clef was turned to stone. (Gives him a better reason for not trying to catch up with the knights again than 'Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger')
• Rings not orbs.
• I ignore the anime's UxC scenes, with complete bias, unless I'm feeling the need to write some one-sided love Angst!scot. Or ZxA.
• The getting captured by other countries totally happened.
• Debonair never happened. (Nova is negotiable, but usually not there either)
• Ascot's big moment of character development happened at the Water Shrine.
• Mokona is god.
• Sierra never happened and Presea didn't die. This doesn't change anything about Ascot, either, because even if he didn't kill Presea, I'm inclined to think he's responsible for more deaths than that.
• There is always a tea party.
• Caldina and Ascot are totally brotp. They just didn't bond until after their encounters with the knights.
• All of Ascot's friends we're introduced to in the anime also exist in the manga. Only they didn't die. ;D
• Eagle Vision lives.
• Ascot's bird-man friend is named Yaris. Thank you, Down, because that creature gets way too much screen/page time to lack a name.

Quote from: Mokonalord on March 15, 2015, 01:08:34 PM

• I ignore the anime's UxC scenes, with complete bias, unless I'm feeling the need to write some one-sided love Angst!scot. Or ZxA.

But what do you do about the ones in the manga? XD

Quote from: Mokonalord on March 15, 2015, 01:08:34 PM

• There is always a tea party.
• Caldina and Ascot are totally brotp. They just didn't bond until after their encounters with the knights.

There should always be a tea party! I may adopt this as new fic guideline. At least for long fic. ALL THE TEA. And YES at Caldina and Ascot :D

Quote from: Mokonalord on March 15, 2015, 01:08:34 PM

• Ascot's bird-man friend is named Yaris. Thank you, Down, because that creature gets way too much screen/page time to lack a name.

And thus my brother's car is immortalised! Or, um, something. (It's a good car! XD)

Quote from: Down on April 05, 2015, 11:06:21 PM

Quote from: Mokonalord on March 15, 2015, 01:08:34 PM

• I ignore the anime's UxC scenes, with complete bias, unless I'm feeling the need to write some one-sided love Angst!scot. Or ZxA.

But what do you do about the ones in the manga? XD

*shit-eating grin* What ones in the manga?;D

Just kidding. Honestly, I just think most of their manga interactions can just as easily be interpreted platonically as romantically. Also, having Umi see Ascot during that night time sequence wouldn't be advisable, as Ascot's probably still reeling too much from the shock of 'UMI'S BACK AND SHE TALKED TO ME!' to be coherent. Actually, my headcanon is that Ascot was hanging out with Caldina and Lafarga during that time just completely flipping out and overanalyzing their earlier interaction, like, "Was I okay? I didn't say anything stupid, did I? Did I look all right? Be honest, I looked like a complete dork, didn't I?"

In terms of anime vs. manga in headcanon, I've recently come to the decision that Sierra exists in my manga headcanon, we just never have a reason to meet her. For some reason, my muse has really latched onto the idea that Presea has a twin sister and just wouldn't leave me alone until I allowed Sierra into my headcanon.

Of course, my muse then took that as permission to start shoving Presea & Sierra fic ideas at me.

Personally I draw mostly from the manga, but I will pull ideas from the anime I like/and or find useful.

Presea does not die.
Eagle does not die.
Eagle loves sweets (anime plucked headcannon there)
Alcyone did not survive to season two.
The Knights can come and go to Cephiro as they please.

Debonair did not happen, EVER, or Nova, that plot peeved me so much in the anime. I mean the whole first season pretty much is a deconstruction of 'there is only good, or only evil' and you always know which is which.  And the season two of the anime...makes a thing that is wholly evil/not a person, therefore does not receive pity and can be killed/destroyed without regret. ugh, and the only way I put up with Nova existing is if the other two knights also create similar shadows. That fic I might read.

Personal headcanon though? Mine mostly relates to Autozam and that it went though a huge nasty civil war/ revolution not too far in the past where it went from a royal line/dictatorship to something akin the united states with a congress or parliament per say. It was not an easy transition either, the war that followed being a large contribution to the world's pollution and destabilization, though it was already doing that before the war, and may also being a some or the reasoning behind the start of the war. I could go on for days about Autozam's political state, haha.

I've been sorta developing my own alternate anime canon. It keeps a lot of the newly introduced characters/concepts but also includes a lot of the good manga elements that were needlessly cut, as well as some things that the anime could've improved/expanded upon but didn't. Some examples:

• Debonair doesn't exist, but Nova and Innouva do. In fact, Innouva barely survives the first season and is actually the main villain in the second
• Presea does die, but Sierra does not pretend to be her. Instead, she comes to the castle looking for answers about how her sister died, but doesn't get the complete story until Alcyone tells her
• The orchard scene is there, but occurs before Umi and Fuu get kidnapped by Chizeta and Fahren.
• What happened in the shrines mostly follows the manga, retaining the original challenges and villains and villain character moments that happened there
• There are actual flashbacks to some of the stuff that happened during the season gap. Notably development of Caldina/Lafarga and other things mentioned only briefly in the manga like Clef teaching Ascot magic or Lafarga and Ferio going on scouting missions together.

This probably isn't the place to point it out but - the ONLY entirely-anime-based 'verse I have is the one in which there are TWO FIC - the angst-ful Lantis one in which he goes back to Autozam with Geo and Zazu to do what he can because Eagle's dead...

...........and the fic in which Clef ends up pregnant with Ferio's kid.

I just. REALLY BRAIN? THOSE TWO SHARE A UNIVERSE? (Not only do they share a universe, but it is actually integral to the plot of the crack fic! REALLY?)

The anime has too contradictions and the manga story is superior imo The only better part of the anime is somewhat superior is more worldbuilding

I was introduced to the series through the anime as I was a kid though

it's just so frustrating how the anime took one of the most important Themes of the manga story and slapped it in the face.  the rejection of self-sacrifice and Hikaru promising to herself that there will be no more meaningless deaths...  then they off Eagle to simplify the love triangle and for cheap emotional pull.  they could've easily had Eagle decide to back off Hikaru and Lantis romantically, that could be so moving if done well, but the writing in the anime is a bit clunky in general IMHO.

Hikaru was not willing to step over Eagle's body in order to assume the position of Pillar, she was ready to die with him first.  and she would've done that for anyone, and that is so important to her character, and how Umi and Fuu are the only reason she survived?  god the whole "friendship is magic" theme of the series comes to a head there.