The Mashin's terms for the Magic Knights

[Somariel]

How would the Mashin refer to the Magic Knights while talking about them?

[suzanami]

I'm resurrecting this topic because I'm poking through my fic from last year which deals with the Mashin a fair bit (mostly Windam, and it's Fuu's POV) so I'm trying to get in their heads more, figure out some worldbuilding for them more.  also UNNGH I totally would've replied to this post when I saw it but I missed a lot of stuff here for a while.

I think if they're talking to, say, a mortal, they would say "the Magic Knights", and if just talking about one (say, Windam talking to Ferio), "the Magic Knight" where the context of which Knight is assumed (if Windam's talking to Ferio, he's likely referring to Fuu).  if context isn't assumed (Windam mentions Hikaru), then probably "the Magic Knight of [Element]".  which sounds fairly stilted in English but seems right?

now if they're communicating with each other???  that's trickier.  I personally headcanon that they can communicate amongst themselves without literal words, since they're kind of spirity-wirity.  but if they're using words...  not sure about before bonding with the girls, maybe the whole "the Magic Knight of [Element]"?? 

but I think that after they've bonded with the girls they start to say things like "your Knight" and "my Knight" to each other, and they get embarrassed about it until they realize all three of them are doing it.  and every once in a while maybe one of them slips and calls his Knight by her given name and he gets really embarrassed because that's something intimate between Mashin and Knight.  (Fuu and Umi specifically invited their Mashin to call them by their given names)

/flails hands
I just really really love the Mashin being treated as proper characters with personalities and all

[Somariel]

The Mashin are definitely proper characters in their own right. That's why I asked about this, since I have a few story ideas percolating that involve them as characters. In fact, some of my planned first person POV scene stories are to do the the testing of the girls from their Mashin's POV.

[Down]

Why have I not replied to this before? Probably brainlessness, heh.

I - am thinking about this because I've only every written a lot of Selece and while I know a LOT about how I think he refers to Umi, I don't know how much it transfers across to the others, also I should write something for the others! (QUICK someone give me Windam-and-Fuu and Rayearth-and-Hikaru prompts to match with my Umi-and-Selece-have-a-waterfight shortfic I NEED A SET NOW XDDD)

Because Selece is - he's HUGE and he's a DRAGON and he DECLARES EVERYTHING IN THE ANIME IN A BIG ALL-CAPS VOICE and they use a form of Japanese which is v.formal or rather archaic or (probably) BOTH and trying to translate that across into terms is - yeah.

Though I think - before they test the knights, they probably would just refer to them as 'candidates' or 'the one who wishes to become a magic knight/the magic knight of ~ELEMENT~' but once they have, then pretty much instantly I'd have Selece at least calling Umi 'HIS Knight' because - he's a dragon and dragons are possessive, but because they have to have impressed the mashin to be accepted by them, so I don't think he'd mind?

Later and more affectionately I have him using 'my little one' and 'my little knight' (and he calls her 'little one' directly) because - she IS. The knights, to the mashin, must seem so SMALL, so tiny and so fierce and determined and I think he is eternally astonished by that because humans are so small that it's part of the reason he loves them.

(((and when he kinda adopts Clef for reasons (IT'S A PLOT POINT HONEST XDDD) Clef gets 'little mage' because he like Umi is tiny and fierce and determined. But it's never 'MY mage'. ...'My Knight's little mage' sometimes, perhaps, but. XD)))

For the other two - I can see Windam at least remaining more formal at first, with 'the knight who bears my power' perhaps? A formal title, but one which gives her relationship to him.

.............SIDE NOTE am I right in thinking that 'the magic knight of water' etc are fandom titles and not used in canon? OR NOT? Because it's very, VERY hot and I am now curious but can't be bothered to look it up that involves movement XDD also can't remember because brain, so overheated, ugh. Because given the title of the series, formally the titles should probably be 'Magic Knight (of) Rayearth/Selece/Windam' etc (in english I'd propose using 'of' because it's a common-place thing in formal titles and we don't compound noun quite as easily as Japanese or German or other languages, but then I like long titles XDD) BUT I think in canon they're only referred to as the plural 'Magic Knights'

...........For some reason I think Rayearth would use 'Hikaru' more easily than the other two use actual names (Selece through possessiveness and pride and DECLARATIVE TENDENCIES, Windam through formality?) but yes I think Windam at least would be embarrased if he referred to Fuu as Fuu. :DDDDD WHICH WOULD BE CUTE.

[suzanami]

Somariel I'm so excited about that!  the fandom's had a serious lack of work done with the Mashin so I'm just thrilled a few of us are interested in tackling it.  aaahh

Windam was totally embarrassed in the anime when Fuu discussed addressing each other in familiar terms.  it's so precious I love it.  so I think he calls her by her name one-on-one, because for him that's very intimate (as it is for Fuu - Ferio and Windam are the only people whose names she doesn't use honorifics with and aahhhh it's telling of something)

I'm pretty sure "Magic Knight of [Element]" is fanon.  I'm almost certain it never appeared in at least the anime or manga (not sure about any of the games).

(ahh I meant to write something about how before they bonded with the girls they'd refer to them in the "fledgling Magic Knights" way but totally forgot.. I love "candidates")

I STILL HAVE TO DECIDE HOW I'M GONNA DEAL WITH WINDAM'S FORMAL/ARCHAIC SPEECH.  I've only written him a couple short lines in "A Heart Worthy" so I skirted that issue.  anyone have some samples to work with? (I also have squirreled away that tumblr post breaking down the whole thee/thou/thine/etc in case I decide to go that route, but I hate to just do that and be clumsy about it if there's a way to translate that register that's more comfortable to read.)


I like to think that they're not unlike their Knights in personality.  like you said, Rayearth would be eager to call Hikaru by her given name, Selece would do it out of possessiveness, and Windam would get a little flustered at the invitation but be quietly pleased.


(Down, what kind of prompt are we talking for Fuu/Windam?  I might be able to come up with something.)

[Down]

Strategies I have considered while writing the Mashin AN INCOMPLETE LIST OF THINGS I FORGET TO THINK ABOUT DOING A LOT (aka I think about writing instead of getting on with it too much XDD):

• Not many contractions. And pick thy verbs with caution! A couple of instances of 'ensnare' instead of 'trap' and so on - the slightly-less-usual verbs - and the speech-pattern will sound more formal with very little effort and without any fussing with pronouns~! ...It can be overdone though. Rather easily. XD Plus I tend to throw those at all my characters so I need a bit more to mark out the Mashin? "I shall ensure that this task will be completed" vs "I'll see this gets done".
• I use shall and may wherever I can where will and can might be used more commonly now.
• The pronouns for themselves! I generally try to have them use 'this one', at least in more formal situations or when speaking to someone other than their knight, which is a direct translation of what you do in a formal situation in Japanese and turns up in middle english on occasion too.
• Using thee/thou/thine/thy, because (as long as you're comfortable using it) it's still pretty easy for a reader to understand for someone who has grown up in an english-language environment (the eternal popularity of Shakespeare!) but it's ALSO easy to look up for those who aren't familiar with it, and it's pretty easy to parse from context? Sometimes I'd also bring 'ye' into the mix (because it's the plural of thee originally, though it also became the informal/respectful variant later, so a lower-class person would use 'ye/you' at an upper class person, and an upper-class person would thee/thou at them, because who needs to be respectful to people below you in status! But given that's a somewhat late and fleeting development I mostly think it would have passed the Mashin by. .........not that they're speaking english but IN THE EQUIVALENT XD. So I stick mostly to thee/ye as subject, thou/you as object, and thy/thine (thy with a consonant thine with a vowel, I think?) as possessive and use them pretty simply.
• Also I have a mother from Yorkshire - my Grandfather would use thee/thou and ye. So they sound right to me just because I'm a little used to them in a modern context? Not that this is anything to do with the mashin really oops.
• If using 'thou' then the verb should really conjugated with a -t ending (art for are, goest for goes/go etc) but if it looks very silly to the modern eye I don't bother with that. BUT I DO use a -t form verb where that conjugation is still in modern(ish) usage, with or without thou. I don't think there's as many lurking in American English now as there are in the UK though? But we've still got quite a few which are used on occasion so I do.
• Because I'm writing in english which is part of the Germanic language family, if I have a choice between a german-derived word and a french/latinate or other one, I try to think to use the German, with all the Cephiran characters (on the basis they have probably been invaded less often and that longer life-spans would lead to much less language evolution - I mean, Clef would, in england, have lived through Chaucer's middle english (or a different one, it was very regional!), all the way through to Shakespeare's early modern to the modern day varients. That's a LOT of language evolution!) (BUT if you take the 700 years before that - there's a lot LESS change from anglo-saxon/old english. Pronunciation differences and a loosening of grammar rules, yes, but a looooooot less than Chaucer to now! There was a lot less contact with other language groups at this point - especially as it took until the late 1300s for the upper classes to deign to speak english, before they stuck to their anglo-norman as a seperate language, so once they started speaking english regularly and at home there was a lot more infiltration of the words they were using which the lower classes had no access to or use for - scientific terms and fancy foods etc?). I also often fail at this! SO MUCH. XD
• ADDED TO WHICH I'll link up nouns into a compound-noun or noun phrase a lot more and use kennings in place of simple nouns. Which is also anglo-saxon/old english~! And throw in alternative phrases to refer to people. But if I do any of this too much my beta has been known to try to throw things at me... the most common example being referring to Umi as 'little one' or 'little knight' or 'the knight who bears my power' instead of using her name - it's also fondness in that example, but the principle is the same?
• And I let myself be alliterative more often. XD I do it by accident - mostly I edit a lot of my alliteration out of things, but it works okay to have it more often with the Mashin, I think?
• Fewer pauses/hesitations/partial statements than the humans use. They're gods, they have more certainty in what they say? Not that they don't hesitate! But my style of dialogue is... a stylised natural, I'll use half-sentences and hesitations and qualifications to get across emotion and thought-process a LOT for most characters, and because that's how people talk, and I try to do it a bit less for the Mashin?

And this is where I go AAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHHA OOPS I'M RAMBLING and run away. XDD

(@Suz - some kind of silly thing they can do together or bond over, I guess? ^^)

\o/ YAY FOR THE MASHIN and oh dear I think about things far too much XD

[suzanami]

DOWN THANK YOU WOW THAT IS GONNA BE SUPER HELPFUL

A couple of instances of 'ensnare' instead of 'trap' and so on - the slightly-less-usual verbs - and the speech-pattern will sound more formal with very little effort

I have some practice with this because it's how I try to write Fuu!  so many people try to differentiate her manner of speaking by using ~no contractions~ and that's it... which, I mean, Fuu does talk differently but that's really jarring in English.  I have her use slightly less contractions than Umi or Hikaru (especially Hikaru) but she still doesn't avoid them to a stilted degree.  she says "perhaps we should converse elsewhere?" instead of "maybe we should talk somewhere else?" - so not incredibly strange but definitely marked.  I think just punching it up to where it's more noticeably marked speech patterns for the Mashin would make sense, since they're ancient gods they can talk in a way that reads as slightly jarring.

I use shall and may wherever I can where will and can might be used more commonly now.

is it that simple?  I remember some discussion in school about shall/will meaning different things in a legal context, much are they old>new synonyms in normal speech?

Because I'm writing in english which is part of the Germanic language family, if I have a choice between a german-derived word and a french/latinate or other one, I try to think to use the German

HOLY CRAP THIS IS GENIUS DOWN YOU IDIOT WOW
Nah like this is really subtle but makes so much sense and I'm really excited about this  *brain flowers*

[Down]

Hee, glad you found that ramble helpful! (I mean, I don't use them all the time, but throwing bits of these in and messing about until it reads right is pretty much what I try to do??) "DOWN YOU IDIOT WOW" is making me grin. XDD New favourite mode of address!!

With shall vs will - they're pretty much interchangable in modern usage, but 'shall' is less common and used in legal terms, which makes it sound more formal to the modern ear- both are germanic, but shall has a background meaning/connotation of necessity and obligation, where as 'will' comes from 'to want' and therefore is more personal? In legal terms, 'shall' is definitely used in UK law instead of will. Stuff like 'Those in control of premises shall ensure, as far as is reasonably practicable' etc etc etc - because you are obligated to follow the law. (Technically I think also that use is meant to be 'I shall' and 'you/they will' in normal terms, and switched to 'I will' and 'you/they shall' when there's an emphasis or you're being more formal? ...The multiple ways and means of englishing, heh.)

BUT BASICALLY because of the background meanings and the way it's associated with the law means 'shall' is more formal to the ear- 'you SHALL do your homework!' is 'you are obligated to do your homework!'? It's firmer. With 'will' there's some choice in the matter.

Also question-forms such as 'Shall we (go out to eat tonight or stay in?)' sound more formal than 'do you want to go out tonight' (maybe because as you're asking the question that way the other person's answer has you under an obligation?) but in question form it really follows the shall with I/we and will with you/they/he/she format... (I shall stay in tonight. You will go out.)

With may/can, can is for things which are physically/technically possible, and may is for permission - in school we were always being told by sarcastic teachers that (if we said something like 'can I take my jacket off?') yes, we were perfectly capable of taking our jackets off, that didn't mean we were allowed to. So with the mashin, especially, given their role in granting permission to use their powers and so on, I think they'd be using 'you may enter my domain' or 'you might use my name, if you so wish' instead of can/could? And because people aren't bothering to use 'may' very much anymore - except again in legal situations where the term is (I think) sometimes used specifically because it's giving permission or prohibiting something - 'you may only smoke in the designated smoking areas' - again it sounds more formal or old-fashioned because it's now less common??

When talking about something that might/could happen/have happened, then 'may/might' is used to imply uncertainty and sounds more formal, 'can/could' just means it's possible and you don't know either way. "We could be late for the meeting' means it's possible. "we might be late for the meeting" means you're uncertain and implies you're worried about it - therefore you'd probably use the second for speaking with your boss to show you care, thus it sounds more formal because you'd be using it more in situations where you want to assure the other party you care?? 'They might have turned up already' is when you are uncertain they've turned up, 'they could have turned up already' is more that it's entirely possible they're there already. You don't know one way or the other. (You may not care either way. XD)

................................OF COURSE THIS MAY BE DIFFERENT IN THE STATES UM heh. But given we're talking old-fashioned, I think it crosses over?

GRAMMAR RULES WITH A DRAGON. XD;;;;;;; Hilariously, a lot of my knowledge of english grammar comes from learning Latin and Japanese - we learnt the differences in the english rules which are becoming looser now so that we could translate more accurately and distinguish between the forms in other languages. XDD ..........Plus I guess my english language and literature a-level had a lot of looking at the underlying connotations and meanings of words and what they might imply to people so it's something I like poking at? Apologies for rambling on though!

(There are some good less-common linking words, too - thus or thusly (therefore!), hither (here!) hitherto (before!), thither (where!), and so on~ 'due to' instead of 'because of' and things toooooo~)

(I really like 'hitherforto' which is still just 'before' but you can use it as 'hither for to' as in 'here in order to' - 'for to' instead of just '(in order) to' is fun and also ADDS WORDCOUNT which is good in nano and less when my chapter is 13000 words and climbing. Um.)

[Somariel]

I have to repeat Suzanami's comment: DOWN YOU IDIOT WOW!

This is all very useful and I never really knew any of it.

[moonsea]

i remember that there was some grammatical conversation at the chatroom,and i saved it to study,i'll save that too.
thank you,its really nice and helpful.

[Down]

Hee. Glad people find it useful!

The most useful resource I've found for looking at word-meanings and history when I'm poking at this kind of thing is the Online Etymology Dictionary - http://www.etymonline.com/ - which is basically a dictionary of the historical meanings and evolution of words. I get lost on it for hours while procrastinating. XDD (It's pretty good, too. Etymology is one of those things which academics can argue about for decades - 'I think it came from this word!' 'well, /I/ think it's from THIS one!') but that site's fairly reliable about giving all the commonly accepted roots~)

[Somariel]

.............SIDE NOTE am I right in thinking that 'the magic knight of water' etc are fandom titles and not used in canon? OR NOT? Because it's very, VERY hot and I am now curious but can't be bothered to look it up that involves movement XDD also can't remember because brain, so overheated, ugh. Because given the title of the series, formally the titles should probably be 'Magic Knight (of) Rayearth/Selece/Windam' etc (in english I'd propose using 'of' because it's a common-place thing in formal titles and we don't compound noun quite as easily as Japanese or German or other languages, but then I like long titles XDD) BUT I think in canon they're only referred to as the plural 'Magic Knights'

I've recently come to the conclusion that the formal titles of the Magic Knights would be 'the Magic Knight of [Mashin]', somewhat less formally - but still likely to be used in a formal situation - they would be '[Mashin's] Knight', and informally, they would be 'the Magic Knight of [Element]' or 'the [Element] Knight'.

No, I'm not coming up with headcanon that fits with the stories I've already written, not at all.

[Down]

Working out headcanon and what works while writing it is VERY FUN THOUGH :DDDDDDDDD

[suzanami]

I gave them these sort of rambling wordy titles relating to their Mashin and (I think also?) element that only ever get used if they're being announced, but I think I tend to use "Knight of [Mashin]".  /rifles through 30k to check consistency or lack thereof

[Down]

If it's other people talking about them? They get an ACTUAL HONORIFIC when they're being fancy, in my fic - not so much in Cephiro as outside of Cephiro, I guess, but hey Zagato and Emeraude and Ferio all get honorifics in canon so WHATEVER THE KNIGHTS CAN HAVE THEM TOO so Umi gets 'Lady Ryuuzaki, Knight of Cephiro/Selece/Water' (and I think I am going to have to change that so it's consistently 'Selece' a-although, ALTHOUGH, I am wondering if off-world they give the element because it's more understandable and also the Mashin are private the same way that Clef's being 'Master Mage' away from Cephiro, UGH NOW I HAVE TO THINK ABOUT THIS AGAIN UGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHh)

Sometimes it's 'A knight of Cephiro' so that she isn't the definitive article about knighthood XD BUT

(Master Mage/Guru, Soru, Faaru etc are titles - earned job descriptions. The 'Lord/Princess/Prince' honorifics are not titles so much as respectful modes of address which imply social standing and power with them, but needed necessarily mean that they are A Lord as a role, because they're - well, that 'lord' is 'sama' which is kinda closer to 'sir' in meaning? As in, it implies probably a standing of some sort but in the Cephiran context probably not a defined explicit one just that you have a lot of respect for this person who is high-ranking. And ~hime and ~ouji too - THOUGH historically ~hime can be used for any woman of high rank not just those who are technically princesses (the actual utter term is 'oujyo' for princess. 'ouji' is therefore traditionally higher ranked than 'hime', the male equivalent of which was 'hiko', but 'hiko' is out of use as an honorific in modern day Japanese so 'ouji' is getting wider usage- it turns up in manga and anime a lot for the fancy guy in class etc~ the more usual honorific is just ~sama but they'd already given that to Zagato and the use of 'ouji' does actually make the point that Ferio's right to it is based on his relationship to Emeraude rather than in his own right?) (And they are kiiiiiiiinda using it as a title for him because he gets 'ouji-san' once (I think that's Caldina though and she's a non-native speaker, Presea uses it alongside 'Guru' but Ferio's identity's being hidden at that point, and I think 'hime' was used as an identifier too? but then also he HAS no actual alternative rank of his own? Anyway I think if it was a rank then when Fuu's going 'wait, all of your titles are in Cephiran so WHY are WE ALONE 'magic knights' in english WHAT IS UP WITH THAT???' she's notice a few Japanese ones, which implies that the japanese honorifics dotted about in there and used are in an honorific role eg 'my lord Zagato' rather than 'Zagato, Lord of Bentley'?)

....................I'm still thinking about how I want the Council to call them forward formally for reasons in about UM two chapters. At the moment I'm leaning towards 'Do you stand forth, Ryuuzaki Umi, Lady Knight of Water and donner of the Mashin Selece' (I almost want 'wielder' instead of donner, just because donner is - eh, but it doesn't sound right to wield something living~ because it implies having power and control over them? Maybe bearer? ~bear~ implies carrying, but also enduring and producing/bringing forth and also being able to cope with a thing...) (OR I could go with something like 'Chosen of the Mashin Selece'... 'chosen to bear the mantle of the Mashin Selece?) (HOW MANY WORDS CAN I MAKE THIS TERM OF ADDRESS USE

(Don is a HILARIOUS WORD anyway - it's 'do on', and doff is 'do off', so you don your clothes when you put them on because you do on your clothes then you do off them when you take them off BUT it's late - 14th Century slang which got popular randomly 19th Century after being mostly a northern thing until then?)

Because I kinda want to imply in one word the whole 'chosen by and carrying the terrible power of the god whilst being a mere mortal' thing... because they don't command that power so much as they're granted it, is what I'm going for? That the Mashin retain the right to withdraw it at any point they should so please, because they are the Mashin and beyond mortals to compel?

Ryuuzaki Umi, Lady Knight of Water, the one chosen to wield the might of the Mashin Selece...?

Ryuuzaki Umi, Knight of Selece, chosen to bear the might of the Mashin/his Might? ...If I go down THAT route though I have to decide whether I'm using genders for the Mashin.

('do you ~verb~' is an order, in this context, not a question. And I'm questioning whether or not to use that, because I think I'd have to gloss it for the understanding of those who haven't come across it before because looking it up wouldn't be so easy?)

'Do you stand forth, Ryuuzaki Umi, Knight of Selece, chosen to bear his might.' HMM

(WHY YES I MIGHT BE PROCRASTINATING)